ES345: help me on a decision to take (a bit long, sorry!)

[fabien]

Hi all,

I bought my ES345 about four year ago at a vintage guitar show. It's a '74 in cherry finish that came out of a collection or so the seller said (large German guitar store). The condition was (and still is) excellent except for bad dings on both side of the headstock where the guitar rests on the hanging display hook (or fork) wich could account for 10 or 20 years hanging. Fretwork was perfect so not much played (or refretted but I don't believe so), and the tone is warm but still bright and well defined, much better than my '78 ES355 SV it replaced (sold a year after) that was actually to dark and muffled, the tone I mean!

Anyway I love that 345, but it has the trapeze tailpiece all 300's were fitted with at that time. For many years I stringed it (and the 355 before) with .012" sets with the wound G, playing only jazz on it. Great tone and no problems with the tailpiece.
But now I put a set of .010" and it doesn't react as I expected: there is a sort of extra vibration or resonance on the guitar that I attribute to the trapeze tailpiece beeing looser due to the lower string tension. And now that I can do some string pulls (try that on a wound .017" G string!) I need to pull much further than on other guitars to go up half or full tone: makes sense since the strings are quite longer to reach the tailpiece.

Now my dilemma: should I make the dive and let it fitted with a stop tailpiece, the way all 335 and 345 were concieved back in '59 and as many players seem to have done? Once it's done you can't go back.
Anybody here who's done it?
Pros and cons?

What do you think and what would you do?

Fabien

[Paul G.]

Done properly they are fine.

I like both stop-tail and trapeze versions, so I'm not so sure you should do this. I think before you dive into an unreversible conversion you should make sure the vibration is coming from the tailpiece.

Get a helper, and play the guitar. When you hear the vibration that annoys you, have the helper put his hand on different parts of the guitar, starting with the tailpiece. I've been convinced a rattle came from one part of a guitar only to find it was something entirely different, a loose bridge aduster, a wonky saddle or a misaligned pickguard.

If you decide to go ahead, find a good luthier who has done this before. To do it right, you need a drill press, excellent woodworking skills and the right tools.

Your guitar's tone will change, it will sound less airy and acoustic, and more like a solid body. It will also lose some value.

P.

[Itchy]

I am not partial at all to 335-style guitars with stoptails. I know they're popular but to me, the stoptail makes the guitar less archtoppy and more like a hollow Les Paul. I think the stoptail adds a pleasing woodiness to the tone.

Before you go cutting holes in the top and mounting a stoptail, I think you might do well with finding a set of strings that's a compromise between the jazz sets you were using before and the 10's you have on it now (which must feel like spaghetti after what you were used to!) Try a set of 11's with a plain G, or even a set of 12's with a plain G. The extra tension may eliminate the problem you mention.

[Andy R]

I'm with Itchy. Try other stuff, that's a huge step you'll almost certainly regret in the future. Don't ask me how I know that!!!

[fabien]

...you should make sure the vibration is coming from the tailpiece.

...If you decide to go ahead, find a good luthier...

...It will also lose some value.
Paul,

It's not exactly a vibration or rattle you can hear, it's difficult to explain. It feels like the whole set string-bridge-tailpiece is somewhat too loose on the guitar, not firm enough! I had the same feeling putting .010" strings on my ES175 I had back in the '80. But playing on a 335 stop tail (a friend of mine has one) it feels more 'firm'.
It all makes sense when you think that in the '40 and '50 guitarists were using much heavier gauge than today even on teles or early Les Pauls and jazz guitarists still all use at least .012"

I do have a good luthier, he just build a custom guitar for me that beats a '70 Gibson regarding quality so I'm coverd on this one.

Loosin value... don't know, at the show where I bought it (stands twice a year) I've seen '70 335 stop tail (thus converted) in much worse condition than mine at least as expensive. But I realize it's a heavy impact mod.

ES335 guitarists that I listen to and apreciate the tone very much all play (or have played) stop tail models: Larry Carlton, Robben Ford, John Scofield, Steve Khan.

Thanks anyway all for your input.

Fabien

[Wally]

Fabien, I have a '66 ES-345TDC that I bought new in May of '67. The resonance that is bothering you is probably the tones that are created from the vibrations between the bridge and the tailpiece. You can weave something through the strings in this area to deaden them....surgical tubing, polish cloth..and solidify the tone. These vibrations also occur past the nut on most guitars, and that can bother me.
If the bridge has a retainer spring to hold the saddles in place, this can start to rattle. With a small screwdriver, carefully put a crimp/bend in the spring in between each saddle to take up slack.
As far as bending, some folks put up with a wound third string, but I cannot go that route. It will take about twice the travel to bend a wound string as it would take on a plain string. James Burton clued us all to that long ago when he started using a banjo string for the high E and moved the first five strings from his set of guitar strings down....he threw the low E away, I guess. That is where modernn string gauging began, as I understand.
As far the proposed modification, I suppose that the '70's Gibsons would be the ones which would suffer less loss, but I would not do it. Better than that would be to just break down and find a decent deal on a Dot neck 335. Good luck....

[Emmitt O.]

....but I wouldn't take a trapeze tailpiece guitar and make a stoptail out of it. In fact, I sold one Gibson guitar because of the trapeze tailpiece rather than change the guitar.

Earlier, someone said it would lose some value if you changed it, I agree. But, I believe it would lose a lot of value. Make sure you don't do too much to an already fine instrument.

Good luck with your decision. Be sure to exhaust all possibilities before making such a drastic move.
Emmitt O.

[fabien]

Wally: the problem is I always wanted a 345 with trapezoide inlays more than a dot (or block) 335. Now I got one with a great neck and great pups, I'm not gonna sell it that easily. Beside I live in Europe and the choice of vintage guitars is much more limited than in the US.

Anyway thanks to all for your input, don't worry I'm not gonna drill that one without serious thinking and certainly not with my power drill on the kitchen table. If I do make the mod, it will be done by a pro luthier.

Fabien

[Wally]

Fabien, I understand the desire for the 345. I picked it over a sunburst 335 the day I bought mine. the versatility of the 345 spoiled me. I am still partial to a rainbow of choices on a guitar. Hey, I built a 2 pickup Tele that had 12 sounds!
Please try the deadening trick on the strings behind the bridge. It makes a big difference.
Being a '66, my 345 has the small neck that Gibson went to during that era. This is one guitar that will be mine while I walk this earth, but if I ever get a shot at an older 345 with the wide neck, I will be spending some money for it.
I finally picked up an amp that I have wanted for a long time. I traded a BFPro Reverb for a Bell GA-78 Stereo amp....plus some cash to boot, right? I knew that this amp was marketed as a Gibson and under the 'Maestro' logo, but this Bell is the exact amp, including the same model designation. I wish that it were the GA-79 model with reverb, but this one is mint with the cover and quite pleasing. Up until I got that, I was running two Super Champs as a stereo rig. What amp rig do you use with your 345?

[fabien]

Most people want a dot 335 but esthetically I much preffer the 345.
I'd love to try a slim neck like yours. Mine is a bit chunky but no baseball bat and I like it especially for jazz.

My current amp is a Mesa Nomad 45. Great clean tone especially for jazz and great cruch and lead if you like the Boogie tone. a very versatile three channel amp. I use a Digitech RP 12 in the loop for reverb (permanently) and chorus, delay, touch wah when needed. And I have an Ernie Ball volume pedal in pront of the amp.

Just before that I had a Kitty Hawk Quatro preamp into a Mesa 50/50 and two 1x12" Mesa cabs, killer tone at high volume but killing your back to hauwl it around and at jazz level not really required. But great stereo however, you seem to like that too

Before I've had a MusicMan 112RD 65watts combo for about 15 years, great workhorse for clean tone, not for high gain, but I regret having sold it now.

My main guitar isn't the 345 anymore since I got a solid body custom build for me on my design and specs here in Holland wich really is a dream guitar comes true. Although I think about selling my other solid body, a Patrick Eggle (UK build PRS style) I certainly won't part with the 345.
About a year ago I got into telecasters (and discovered TDPRI) and started with a Squier that i upgraded with SD pups, new tuners, new this, new that... and it sounds great on the Mesa. I'm now a tele lover too and gonna buy some real one pretty soon.

Fabien

[slappy]

Great discussson. I'm trying to help my brother sell his 345 at the moment. It's proven somewhat hard to date the guitar. The serial number is unfathomable to Gibson, and the label inside the guitar is black and white instead of the orange I expected. It's got the trapeze tailpiece, and from this discussion I take it that means it's of mid-to-late '70s production.

We had thought a '79. Could it be as early as a '74?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Slappy

[Wally]

Slappy, the Gibson serial numbers from 1961-1976 can be confusing. I have a '66 ES-345TDC which I bought in June '67. By the serial number, the guitar could be a '66, '69 or one of several years in the period from '70-75. By appointments, one can tell that it is definitely a '66. On the other hand, if you have a '79, the number will be 8 digits, of which the 1st and the 5th digits are the year. EX: 73359302....this number would have been stamped on the 335th day of 1979. There should be no confusion about Gibson numbers from about '76 on to the present.
What are the particulars of your instrument...serial number, label (b&w as you said---but is there some purple?), what knobs, what finish color, neck wood (maple or mahogany), logo details---dotted i?, link between o and n---upper or lower?,volute on back of peghead?, .....? Inquiring minds want to know.
These particulars can help sort out the date as you already have learned. Sometimes you just have to get all of the particulars lined up. A mirror might help to read pot date codes. In short, the inspection needs to be thorough. Get back to us...

[slappy]

Wally,

Thanks for the list of particulars. Here's what I know. I'm working from some good quality digital closeups of the guitar at the moment as it's in another state.

Some of what I know is incredible. Serial No.: 3752140. See what I mean? A 7-digit serial number! Mean anything to you? The last digit is either a "zero" or the letter "O." I can't be sure of which.

The label says the guitar is Kalamazoo made. I have no good picture of the label, but I was told it sez Kalamazoo by the guy who took the pictures.

The knobs are what I call "pilgrim's hats." They look like the black plastic, skirted knobs you see on blackface fender amplifiers. You know, with white silk-screened numbers around the top of each "hat brim." Chrome centers in the knobs.

The finish is cherry red transparent.

There's a dot over the "i" in the peghead Gibson logo. The link between the "o" and the "n" is low on the right hand side of the "o" going over to the low end of the left hand vertical stroke of the "n."

I'm afraid I don't know what a "volute" is, so I can't tell if this guitar has one. Not having the guitar, it will be tough to get the pot date codes, but I'll work on it.

Thanks again for any advice or info you can share.

Slappy

[Wally]

Slappy, due to the logo, I am going to guess that the last digit..the 'zero'...is an abberration or maybe a malformed '2' indicating a second. That would place the guitar in the '74-'75 years. Dropping either the first or last digit yields a number that cannot be a '60's digit. The 'witch hat' knobs were introduced in '67 or '68 and were in use for some years, unfortunately. They are ugly, imo.
A volute is a strengthening carve of wood on the back of the neck where the peghead begins behind the nut. All instruments from the viol family...violins, cellos, etc....have volutes. Gibson introduced the volute to strengthen that area, which is a weak point for Gibson due to the truss rod nut cavity. It was introduced in the years from '69 through '74, depending on the model, and dropped from all guitars in '81.
Anyway, I think that guitar is a '74 or '75. It would be interesting to see that number in person, right? My guess is that one of the numbers..I think it would be the last one--'0'.....is not a part of the serial number.

[slappy]

Thanks for your insight, Wally.

[stantheman]

Fab, you want the best of all worlds you don't want major surgery,you want major playability and you want to INCREASE the value of that puppy... not lose money.
Put a BIGSBY on it! like Chet Atkins, like Merle Travis,
like Johnny A (catch him). "Tone up the ying yang like
ringin' a bell." There should be a law that no ES-345 leaves the factory without a Bigsby, without that contraption on there you ain't havin' as much fun as you're supposed to be havin' and your creativity will blossum because you'll be havin' fun with all that TONE.
Regardless of what the death-metal-low-forehead population says believe me they stay in tune unless you really go nuts so save that for the last song in the set.
And speaking of: Brian Setzer if he was here would tell
you that he can't play without one and Brian's gotta be
one of the most performin'ist guys out there today.
GO BIGSBY ! and like it said in the Bible, "don't look back".

[slappy]

Well, my brother has gotten sick of not being able to sell his ES-345TD so he's gonna ship it to me. He's agorophobic, with no computer, so it's a wonder he can even keep beer in the house, let alone sell a guitar.

I'll have it in about two weeks. I guess I'm gonna take some photos and send them to George Gruhn before I sell it, so I'll have an expert's opinion on vintage and value.

Anybody interested in what is probably a mid-70s 345?

[slappy]

. . . and the dating mystery deepens. The neck has a volute, as I've learned by internet research (where I found a picture of one) and by comparing it to the neck on my 1999 custom shop Gibson. Ordinarily, the volute would date it in the 70s, but . . . .

. . . Gibson's made in the 70s, I'm told by internet resources, had the phrase "Made in the USA" pressed or stamped into the back of the peghead beneath the serial number. The Gibson ES-345 that I now have does not have that phrase stamped on the peghead, or anywhere else. That would make it a 60s era Gibson, or so I'm told.

The difference in value between a 60s or a 70s Gibson is several thousand dollars, so it's going to be critical for me to solve this riddle before I offer the guitar for sale. Wally? Anyone? If you have some insight, let me know what you're willing to share.

I'll be probing around on the inside with a dentist's angled mirror looking for pot date codes over the coming holiday weekend. Wish me luck.

[Wally]

slappy, we need to know a few things. For what its worth, what is the serial number? What color and shape is the label inside the body of the guitar? The impressed 'Made in USA' was used from '70-'75. From '75-'77, the 'made in USA' was on a decal; and in mid '77 gibson went back to the impressed Made in USA.
Couldit be that the decal is gone? Is there a trace where the decal once was? How is the neck built...1-piece mahogany, 3-piece mahogany, 3-piece maple? The volute was introduced from '69-'74 on different models at different times and discontinued on all models in '81.
The big break on values with the thinline guitars occurred between the years '64 and '65. There should not be a difference of thousands of dollars between a late '60's and a '70's ES-345, all other variables considered equal.
I would guess that you are looking at a mid-70's Gibson but am waiting on the answers to the questions above.

[slappy]

Serial No.: 3752140

The label is square, it's black and white. Says that the guitar is union made in Kalamazoo.

I don't see any decals either on, or in, this guitar. Nor do I see any trace of where a decal might have once been.

The neck is a three piece. It's been suggested to me that the neck is maple, but I haven't confirmed that yet. Tonight or tomorrow I'll be cleaning up the guitar (cleaning the fingerboard, polishing the frets, new strings,etc.) and I'll pull the truss rod cover to see if the unfinished wood in the neck looks like maple or mahogany. I have two Gibsons with mahogany necks that will serve as a reference point for that determination.

There's some high quality digital images of this guitar on the web at http:paulbx.home.comcast.net/pics/

Have a look if you'd care to.

Thanks again for your interest, and your help.

[Wally]

The label is a rectangle, correct, that is divided up into four triangles? The guitar has a volute and the number places it as a '74-'75. If the neck is maple, one would surmise that the guitar is a '75...mahogany='74. The volute is more telling than the lack of a decal. The number would make it a 1965 if there were no volute, the label were orange, and the neck were not as wide as I know that it is compared to a '65 neck. There is no other year in the '60's that fits that serial number on that guitar.
Gibson's can be confusing from '61 through
'75. My ES-345 has a number that fits the years '66,'69, 73,'74 and '75. The particulars assure one that it is a '66, and that fits with my purchase date when it was new..June of '67.
I once had a customer come in excitedly telling me about a '64 Les Paul that he had seen in a store in a nearby twon. I told him that he had not seen a '64 L.P. He assured me that the shop owner had the guitar tagged as a '64. I told him that I had tried to educate that shop owner about the confusing nature of Gibson numbers. The young man asked me how I knew that the guitar was not a '64 Les Paul. I replied that Gibson did not make any Les Pauls in 1964. We had a chuckle.