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Old August 15th, 2011, 07:03 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I've tried a few times to get a definitive answer from Wildwood.On the other Gibson forum there was a suggestion that it was old growth Indian rosewood,that was "burled",hence the distinct figuring. I would like know that it is not stumpwood due to it's tendency to "move"(split/crack)after building,moreso than trunk cuts. That is not the gospel of course,just my opinion. I found that Advanced Jumbo's were honkin' loud whichever rosewood used. And I prefer maple and mahog over rosewood,but when I played a Madi J-45 I was really stunned at the "complexity" of it,maybe it was the short scale also. It sold as I was humming and hawing,so I bought a hog 45 which is a real smoker.Just if I was ever going to go,rosewood,anything other than Indian,the time may have passed already at Gibson for variation.

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Old August 15th, 2011, 03:01 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by torca View Post
I've tried a few times to get a definitive answer from Wildwood.On the other Gibson forum there was a suggestion that it was old growth Indian rosewood,that was "burled",hence the distinct figuring. I would like know that it is not stumpwood due to it's tendency to "move"(split/crack)after building,moreso than trunk cuts. That is not the gospel of course,just my opinion.Just if I was ever going to go,rosewood,anything other than Indian,the time may have passed already at Gibson for variation.
Old growth Indian rosewood burl... perhaps.
It is a mystery how some trees develop the burl and those burls are highly prized and valued, especially when sawn carefully into book matched veneers..hence probably the name given "mystic".
Each burl has unique figuring.

A local exotic woodshop that I sometimes frequent for my supply of wood,
has a Huge circular cut bookmatched exotic burl 2" thick hanging on their wall. It has a $10K price tag on it.

However, you cannot compare the beauty of Brazilian rosewood to the regular east Indian variety even if it is figured. Here's some samples of what it (Brazilian) can looks like on special selected bookmatched guitar backs.
http://www.edroman.com/customshop/wo...20Rosewood.JPG
The old growth Brazilian has a tendency to have more natural oils in the wood
and that is why it was a favourite for fingerboards as well.
East Indian tends to be very dry wood by comparison.

As far as stump wood harvesting, which may be still done in some parts of the world...with the natural oils, the Brazilian would not have the same tendency to crack or split like the Indian, IMO.

Of course it depends on how much of the stump wood is left to harvest as the length needs to be at least 30 inches or more in height to allow usable guitar building lumber to be harvested, I would think.

On the subject of "mystic properties" of wood...nobody seems to know why
some maple trees produce lumber that is highly figured, flamed, quilted
or birdseye, either..so these can also be generally classified as "mystic".
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Old August 16th, 2011, 12:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I have seen Brazilian rosewood with dramatic and colorful figure, and I have seen Brazilian rosewood with no figure and a consistent orange color. I have had experts in the field refuse to try to identify Brazilian rosewood unless they can sand it for the aroma. they told me that that was the on ly way they coudl identify it. I toted a limited edition Matin 00-28 around a show andnoone would take a jump and say whether or not the guitar was Braz or Indian rosewood. Interesting dilemna, imoh, when it comes to identifying B. Rosewood.
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Old June 9th, 2012, 10:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Mystic Rosewood is stump wood, I have no idea if this would matter but i think stump wood would be harder if harvested and dried out correct...???
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Old June 10th, 2012, 12:45 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Mystic Rosewood is stump wood, I have no idea if this would matter but i think stump wood would be harder if harvested and dried out correct...???
hmmm

maybe. it may cost more, too, because of the trouble of having to dig/excavate the stumps out of the ground. just a thought.
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Old June 10th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I never knew that stump wood was more likely to split and crack,,,is that true?
if so why?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 07:06 AM   #17 (permalink)
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returned wood

If you take a look at the gibson web site they are advertising "Government" models which are supposed to be made from wood which was returned to them , eventually , by the FBI, so ther may well be rosewood that has been returned and this is the marketing departments sense of humour.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 09:57 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I think Mystic Rosewood comes from that magical land where all rosewood is legally harvested and cannot be confiscated.
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Old May 23rd, 2013, 12:57 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Now that I am done laughing at many of the posts in this thread, the following is closest to the truth.

"I think Mystic Rosewood comes from that magical land where all rosewood is legally harvested and cannot be confiscated."

Some points:

Rosewood is not a generic term, rose wood is a rosewood if it is a dalbergia, if it is not a dalbergia , it is not a rosewood. Brazilian rosewood, as an example, is dalbergia nigra, honduras rosewood is stevensoni (sp) or cubilquinsensis (sp).
Coca bola is a rosewood.

Spanish cedar is not a type of mahogany, it is in the mahogany family as are many plants. It is cedrela oderata.. not Spanish and not a cedar.

Spanish cedar is used for necks on classical and flamenco guitars but not for backs and sides, and no flamenco guitars have not been made for centuries, a hundred years is more like it, and they were not always called flamenco guitars, they were simply inexpensive guitars initially made with cheap wood, I seem to recall the term "tablao" guitars. Later sycamore and maple were popular. Currently cypress is expensive so other woods are being used including "alaska yellow cedar" ( which is a cypress) and some are made with rosewood and called flamenca negra, or with padauk also known as "coral" by the Spanish makers. All made with a lighter weight with wood thinner than classical guitars and the low bridge and light bracing, sometimes a thinner body.

Flamenco guitars are not built with cypress for backs and sides to enhance the treble. Cypress, as stated above, was originally used because it was cheap and light weight. . The idea of a flamenco guitar is short sustain and percussive sound and the reason they are made as described above.

East Indian is not as good as brazilian.. that is a matter of opinion and not a fact. Some builders, pricincipally classical builders, choose east indian over brazilian, not just currently, but traditionally. I seem to recall either Freiderich (sp) or Bouchet insisted east Indian was superior. Fleta also used east Indian. Gibson was known to use east indian in pre war AJ's..

Old growth brazilain has more oils... good one !

Stumpwood is in fact known for cracking, splitting and imploding.
Stumpwood is harvested with bulldozers.

Straight grain brazilian has been known for its propensity to split.

Ebony has always been the preferred wood for classical and flamenco except as a consideration for cost,,, and that would have been prior to the scarcity and ban of brazilian. Rosewood was also used for fingerboards if light weight was a consideration.

Love this one... experts in the field refuse to identify brazilian uness they can sand the wood. "Experts" use microscopes, often that is the only real way to split hairs and positively identify brazilian from other rosewoods... example:
Comparing true brazilian ( dalbergia nigra) to what some call "amazon" rosewood, dalbergia spruceana, nearly impossible to tell the difference.

I have been scammed before in a large purchase in Calif back in 1982. What was purported to be brazilian and sold and purchased at brazilian prices turned out to be spruceana, and the only way we found out was to send a sample for testing and pay for the disappointment. We were alerted by nsoneone more knowledgeable than we were.. learning by pain and expense and first hand.

Wood hustlers have been selling spruceana for years to guitar makers as brazilian, and the makers told the dealers it was brazilian, and the dealers told the customers the guitar is brazilian, and many are still convinced what they have is true brazilian.. likely it is not. This wood when seen and felt and planed and sanded looks like and smells like brazilian.

"in the field", wood "experts" don't sand , they scrape or plane.
Sanding dulls the surface and will not give you a shaving which is a principle way to identify wood and determine quality.

"Mystic" rosewood is a marketing term. There is no mystic rosewood.
I like this one... if wood has "mystic properties" it is generally classified as "mystic". I'm going to pass that on, tha nks.

"Rosewood" is thrown about too freely... another example.. bolivian rosewood. It also goes by morado, pao ferro, caviuna etc. It is not a dalbergia, it is not a rosewood. Gibson has used it for fingerboards, my WM-45 has a "morado" bridge and fingerboard, quite nice.. and now Martin is using it.

Mahogany is another term that is used loosely.. seems we have now joined the French in bunching it all together..the French call anything that looks like mahogany "acajou". Guarantee some hype artist/hustler in the US will eventually jump on this term.. look for "acajou" guitars at your dealer soon.
While were at it... there is no mahogany in africa... khaya is a hair splitter .. some say yes, some say no, it is in the mahognay family .. sapele however is not a mahogany..
But as I said, the French got around this by calling the whole lump of reddish brown woods "acajou"
A tid bit... "acajou" came from the Portuguese who went to Brazil ( as the Spanish and English and the French went ot other central and south American countires) to rip off the natural resources and wood was a major gold mine.. more on that another time...logwood,pernambuco etc
The Portuguese modifiied a local word for the cashew tree and it came out
"acajou"... the French who were the big time wood importers then bought "acajou" into LeHavre to the wood hustlers ergo acajou
So how does this relate to mahogany... cashew/acajou was a red/brown wood close to the look of mahoganies, and over the years the whole mess was lumped in ...red/brown acajou ie mahogany..

BTW the cashew trees were then taken to India and Pakistan and it became an industry
Much like diamonds were first found in abundance in Brazil then India and only then in Africa.
I am certain you needed to know this. Just as most timbers were originally imported to europe for dying cloth.. fact.... And that is why the British went to Belize and....... enough already.

It's been fun, but I need to get back to the bench.

To quote a very fine luthier, Carlos Francisco Vega:
" There is no magic wood"

I will take the liberty of modifying his quote:
There is no "mystic" wood. (except wood that has mystic properties)

EDIT:

FLash!!
I have been advised by "someone in the know" that Gibson's "mystic rosewood" is dalbergia latifolia... er um.... East Indian rosewood.


EDIT:
Torres has been creditied with what may have been the first purpose built flamenco guitar around 1867.. however "experts" say that it wasn't specific for flamenco so much as specific for the "folk" music of the era and built lightly and from inexpensive woods. Guitars specifically made for flamenco, not folk, are believed to be an early 20th century phenomenon.

Last edited by bohemian; May 23rd, 2013 at 11:54 PM.
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Old May 24th, 2013, 07:56 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Amazing how facts can kill a thread; my intent was to inform and counter misinformation. Thanks again for the good laugh ... mystic wood.. a classic.
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